Article Details

Irv & Betty Easterday December 2, 1996

Bob Brundage:  Well, here we are again. This is Bob Brundage, and the date is, November, excuse me, December 2, 1996, and we are in Hagerstown, Maryland, and today we are talking to the present Chairman of Roundalab, Irv and Betty Easterday. So, Irv and Betty, tell me, a little bit about life before round dancing. Where were you born and brought up and that type of thing. How'd you get together.

 

Betty Easterday: We were both born in Hagerstown, Irv was born in Hagerstown, Maryland, and I was born in Ohio. But as a small child, my parents moved to Hagerstown. We both went to high school together, we graduated the same year, but we did not date until after high school. Irv was an athlete in high school, and I was involved in a lot of activities at school, but from the time I was 2 years old until I was 17, I took dance lessons; tap, ballet, modem dance, social ballroom, that was part of my life.  When Irv went to college after high school, he went to Springfield College in Massachusetts which is a physical education college.  And part of his college studies was all forms of dance. So he was involved there with square dancing, round dancing, contras and line, tap . . .

 

Irv Easterday:  Modern.

 

BE: And ballet and modern dance.

 

IE: In high school, I did play in the band for a while before I got heavily involved in the athletic side of it.  I played the trumpet so you have, both of us have somewhat of a musical background.  I guess you played piano too, didn't you.

 

BE: Yes.

 

IE: Yes. And in college, I was, we were married, and I was working my way through college so to speak, and Al Brundage had a weekend at Springfield College.

 

BB: Yeah, I was there.

 

IE: And Dick Jones, who was a square dance caller later on, and I were roommates.

 

BB: No kidding.

 

IE: At Springfield College.  And we were making the beds in the dorms for the square dancers that Al had brought in there for the weekend. And I can remember both of us looking through the window in the old East Gym at Springfield College and saying, well, boy, that's something we'll never get involved in.  And Dick ended up being a top caller, and we ended up being in round dancing. So that was kind of interesting, happening in our early years as far as squares and rounds are concerned.

 

BB: Isn't that interesting.

 

BE: We were married in 1951. We graduated from high school in '48, married in ' 51, and lived in Massachusetts for a couple of years while Irv finished college.  Then  moved back to Hagerstown, Maryland, where Irv accepted a position in a high school about 30 miles outside of Hagerstown. Then he accepted a position at our local community college as the first director of athletics in the state of Maryland in the community college program.  His job, because he was a basketball coach and involved in teaching history in the college, kept him busy nights, and we didn't have very much time to do things together. So we decided that if we found something we both liked to do, that we would give up at least one thing and spend an evening together. So I tricked him b getting him to go to a square dance class.  And during the first evening of class, he said to me, why do we have to wait until next week, why can't w do this again tomorrow night.

 

IE: Right. Curl, the caller was Curly Custer.

 

BB: There you go. Okay.

 

BE: So we did our beginning square dance classes with Curly Custer in Hagerstown, and Curly also used some, what we now would call easy-level rounds and line dancing and circle dancing. 

 

IE: Yeah.

 

BE: With our beginners classes. It didn't take us long to realize that the round dancing was one of the parts of the activity that we really liked.  And that was in 1959 we started our square dance lessons, and in the spring of 1960, we went to our first festival,within another year, we went to our first week, full week of dancing at West Point with undage and Jim ...

 

IE: Jack Jackson

 

BE: Jack Jackson ...

 

IE:  (…)

 

BE:  Jack Jones…

 

IE:  Jack Jackson.

 

BE: Jack Jackson.

 

IE:  And Les Gotcher.

 

BE:  And Les Gotcher was there.  The round dance people there at that weekend were Tom and Betty Jane Johnston.  And Tom and Betty Jane were very influential with us for round dancing. Curly would bring them into our town occasionally during the year, and they would spend a weekend teaching new round dances to our group, and then, it was our job to follow through with that when it was over. Curly, for about 6 to 8 months when we decided we wanted to do a round dance club, for several months, he ran the club in his home.  And then, finally decided that, and square dancing were just too much for his schedule because he was still working then full time.  And the group looked at us and said, you're it.  Actually, in the beginning, there was another couple whose last name was Handley, Derek and Aggie Handley. Derek worked for our Government in the National Park Service, and they said, we'll help you with teaching, and we can get you a facility at the Camp David area.  So we danced in a facility at Camp David that had no heat, a nice wooden floor, and a fireplace. So we danced in the winter in slacks because it was very cold in front of an open fire on Sunday evenings, and that's how ...

 

IE: Got hot at one end and cold at the other.

 

BE:   And that's how we started with a round dance club. Eventually, we moved it to a local fire station that had a facility, and we used the fire hall for dancing.

 

IE: And that was basically because the Handleys got transferred to another area as far as his job was concerned.

 

BE: We continued to square and round dance with Curly and other leaders in the town, and then there was a point of time, in time, when Curly was no longer calling for the Saturday night club, and we became pretty instrumental in hiring many of the callers from out of the area to come in on Saturday night. So, 2 Saturday nights a month, the Dixie Squarenaders brought in people like Louie Calhoun, Perry (…)

 

IE:  Al Brundage.

 

BE:  Al Brundage.

 

IE: Kaufman, Steve Kaufman when he

 

BB: Steve

 

BE: When he was very young. John Marshall when he was very young.

 

IE: Right. And whose the young kid in ( ... )

 

BE: Tim Mariner. Not Tim.  We'll think about that.

 

IE: Yeah. He was just (. .. ). I have a hard time with his name.  I don't know why because we liked him very, very much and still do. He's still calling. Does quite, quite a nice job.

 

BE: Tom ( ... ) All right. Anyway, we did that, and we had two by twos at that time, and I would say those years were probably the late '60s, early '70s.  Until probably close to the' 80s, when that club went for about 10 years. And we did two by twos in that group.

 

IE: We had Dick Leger in. We had some of the old-time greats from the East Coast come in and do squares for us.

 

BB: Right. Well, that's great.

 

BE:   Okay. And then in the early '60s, we also had two round dance clubs and a beginners class that we ran 3 nights a week. And in the early '60s, we built a home just outside of Hagerstown. We actually built a dance hall and put a house on top of it. And so all of our classes were run in our home for twenty years, anyway. Close to 20 years. And 3 nights a week, as I said, we did beginners classes, an easy-level round dance group, and more advanced round dance group, and then for about 10 years, we did a very advanced round dance session in our home, along with the square dance thing. Our first festival outside of Hagerstown was in 1964. We were asked by Louie Calhoun if we would fill in for a round dance couple from Pennsylvania, because he, ­this couple could not get off work, and we did a festival in Atlantic City then with Louie Calhoun, and a man whose name was Larry DePetrie, DePetro. He went by the name of Larry D. And that was our first festival outside of Hagerstown. That was in probably 1964. We began to travel then, it mushroomed from 1 weekend to another, and by '69 and early '70s, we were doing 20 to 25 weekends a year away from home.

 

BB: Wow.

 

BE: Our first square dance national was the national in Philadelphia, which I think was in 1967.

 

BB: That's about right.

 

BE: And we were so excited when we had a call from the round dance chairman of that year. They called us on a Sunday night while our group was dancing and asked us if we would teach at the square dance national in Philadelphia. And we just were beside ourselves with excitement.  Couldn't believe it. And, of course, we said yes. And we really have always been very, very lucky at being given a slot that has always seemed to be at the right place at the right time.  They gave us what we know now, was the top spot for teaching. It was immediately following the round dance showcase on Saturday at 1:00 p.m.

 

BB: There you go.

 

BE: The showcase was, I think, from 11 to 1. We immediately followed it, and we wrote a dance called ...

 

IE:    South Town, USA.

 

BE:   South Town USA which was on a Velco, and the hall was filled, and it was very, very exciting for us. And as a result of that time slot and that, our being very luck at that time, we were offered an awful lot of festivals and began very shortly to work the larger festivals in the country.

 

IE:    An interesting commentary on South Town, USA. We had presented that particular routine to Grand Records, and they turned it down, and we gave it to Velco, and they pressed it and it became a hit in square dance national and they sold all the records they had there at the time. So, that made us feel pretty good.

 

BB: I’m sure.

 

IE:    That one outfit turned us down, the other one accepted it and then we made a hit out of it.

 

BB: Yeah. (. .. )

 

IE:    Yeah. In those days that's true. That's the reason we sent it to Grand first

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE:    Hoping that they would do it.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   And then in 1969, we went to the square dance national in Seattle. That was our second square dance national. And our first experience with renting a trailer, pulling it on the back of a station wagon, and dragging our children, who were 11 and 13 at the time, and Irv's mother, who was in her 60s, but she was an elderly 60. In those days, in 1969, when you were that age, you never went anywhere without your long-line bra and your panty girdle, and you always - you never wore slacks.  And so anyway, it was a very interesting time for us. We've never rented a trailer since then. We've never owned one (laughter), and we don't intend to. It was maybe not a very good experience.  But it was fun.

 

IE:    Yeah.

 

BE:   And at that national, we taught a dance called Kahlua Shag which was written by a couple from Hagerstown, Totty and Phil Phillips, who will come into our round dance history a little later in this presentation.  But they wrote this dance called Kahlua Shag, and it, too, became an immediate hit. In fact, it was so popular that when we would walk into the other halls at the square dance national, in either square or round dance halls, the people would say, there come those kids, we were kids then, who wrote - danced - taught Kahlua Shag. Let's have them do it and let's cue it. So they even stopped the square dancing in Seattle for Kahlua Shag to be done. It was an easy-level round that was very popular.

 

IE:  It wasn’t easy then, of course, because it had the shag in it which was pretty tricky for round dancers in those days.

 

BB:  Yeah, I’m with you.

 

BE: But again, that, again, we were at the right place at the right time ...

 

BB: Yeah, right.

 

BE: And that was an opportunity for people on the West Coast to get to know who we were. And as a result of that, in 1969, we were beginning to get invitations to come to the western part of the country.  And so that's really how our round dancing got started. We feel very strongly when we work with new teachers now, when they say to us how can we get started in this activity, we feel very strongly that they need to attend as many square dance functions as possible.  That's what got us going, and that's what got us started.  And we have a lot to owe to the square dance callers and the square dance community for helping us along our way.

 

BB: Right. Well, the square dance community has a lot to owe to you (laughter).

 

BE: Let's see, now what. Where shall we go from here?

 

BB: Well, let's see. How about, any trips overseas?

 

BE:   Yes. Bob Osgood called us in the, probably 1970, '71, and said, I understand, Betty that you're getting ready to graduate from college, which was quite true. I didn't start college until I was 36, and I graduated in 1972, and just 4 years later. Not quite 4 years later. And he said, I'd like to offer you a college graduation gift.

 

BB: Laughter.

 

BE:   And, of course, I said, what, what, what. And he said, well, how would you and Irv like to go to Europe with one of my trips. And, of course ...

 

IE:    Jerry Helt was the caller.

 

BE: Jerry Helt was the caller that was going.

 

IE:    Jerry and Cathy.

 

BB: Yeah.

 

BE:   And, uh, of course, we said yes. And then when I got a job, I had to say to my school principal, this is fine, I really would like to have this position, but I need to tell you that next year in August, late August and early September, we have an invitation to go to Europe, and I'm going to accept - we have accepted that invitation. So of course, my principal let me out of school for that.  So we did our first trip to Europe with Bob Osgood, Bob and Becky. Actually, they did not go along, but the HeIts went along, and

 

IE:    Melo.

 

BE: Melo, who was travel agent and guide that Bob Osgood always used. Melo went along with us. Yeah, we took - as I remember, there were 74 dancers, and the Helts, and Irv and myself, and Melo. And it was quite an experience.   And we have Bob to thank for getting us started with the travels, and now we've done probably every 2 years since then, we have done trips either with Al Brundage, or on our own, or for Bob, and we're, we’ve just come from Europe this year and will be going to China in 19, next year, 1997.

 

BB: Okay.

 

IE:    And we sold out on it.

 

BE:   And it's already sold out. We've been advertising for a month, and there are 40 dancing people going with us to China.

 

IE:    And I said it wouldn't go, it wouldn't sell.  Of course, it sold out faster than anything we've ever done.

 

BB: Yeah, right.

 

BE: Okay.

 

BB: What other exotic places have you been to.

 

BE:   Exotic. Laughter. Lots of exotic places. Our trips have taken us to South America, to Australia, to the

 

IE:    Orient.

 

BE:   The Orient, to Canada, to Alaska, to Europe, many times to Europe, and, so we've seen a lot

 

IE:    We've done Scandinavia twice, and we've done Central Europe three times.  And we did a trip almost exclusively in Spain and Portugal just 2 years ago. And that was very interesting trip, too. So we've seen probably half the world as a result of our trips with dancers, and it's really a neat way to go because you have people with common interest.  They have something to talk about when you're on the long bus rides or something like that, or the long plane rides.

 

BE:   Now the other thing that we've been very fortunate about is that people from overseas, dancers from overseas, have invited us to come overseas to teach.  So, in that light, we have taught in Germany, we have taught in Australia, and we're going to be returning to Australia, we were there in '94, and we're going again in '98. We have taught in Japan, and, of course, in Canada. So that's a different kind of a trip when you're hired to come, and we've always managed to be able to stay a little bit extra time and visit with the dancers.  And not only dance the weekend sessions, but also have time with the local dancers.  And in the year 2000, we've been invited to go to Czechoslovakia.  So, we'll do that.

 

IE:    And the thing with Bob, I was in an association with the, where they called it the Universal Dance Festival or

 

BE:   On Labor Day weekend initially.

 

IE:    International Dance Festival

 

BB: Right, right.

 

IE:    Or something like that, which Bob was pretty much in charge of, I guess.  He set it up so to speak.  And the Helts were the, Jerry Helt was the caller and, of course, we did the rounds, and we did the dance Heidelberg, at the base there at that time.

 

BB: Right. Well, that's great. Okay.

 

BE:   Okay. Urn, other things that, that we have done and been very, very proud of is that, urn, 28, 29 years ago, we started the first, all round dance weekend in the East Coast.

 

BB: Okay.

 

BE:   Up until that time, Joe and ( ... ) Turner had, uh, sponsored what they called Roundacades. They had a Roundacade and a Canadacade, and, uh, their cades were basically round dancing, but they always had a caller come in on Saturday night ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   To do squares and rounds on the Saturday night program. And, uh, we felt that there might be a place for an all round dance weekend.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   So, our first one was started at Great ( ... ) State Park near Berkley Spring, West Virginia. A very small hall ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE: That we limited to 35 couples and that was really squeezing them in.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   And, urn, that particular weekend, uh, lasted well over 20 years, and then we moved it to another facility that, uh, was a little big larger.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   The, uh, state park was continuing to, continually raising their prices and not really upgrading the facility ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE: And we felt we needed to move to that - because of that.

 

BB:  Sure.

 

BE:   Uh, we have, uh, we called our dance weekend and, which eventually became many dance weekends, Roundarama. We're very proud of our Roundarama ...

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:  Weekends and our Roundarama name. We travel now with our - all our trips are under the same name.

 

BB:  Yes.

 

BE:  Urn, there have been times when we have had as high as 12 and 15 Roundaramas across the United States in a year's time. Uh, we have had Roundaramas in, uh, New Mexico, in Texas, California, Oregon, Kentucky, Florida ...

 

IE:  Louisiana.

 

BE:  Louisiana, Mississippi ...

 

IE:  Indiana.

 

BE:  Indiana, Maryland, New England ...

 

IE:  Massachusetts.

 

BE:  Massachusetts.

 

BB:  Right.

 

BE:  Uh, all over the United States. And the way these Roundaramas have happened is, urn, a round dance person will say to us, a teacher or a dancer, we'd really like you to come to our area and do a Roundarama. Would you do that. And we'll say, well, what we really need is someone to be an angel for us and locate a facility and take the registrations, and we will pay you to do that for us. And that's how it's gotten started.

 

BB:  Um,hmmm.

 

BE:  Currently, we have the Florida, the, 00, excuse me, there is a Florida Roundarama that is still going. The one in California is probably in its 24th or 25th year.

 

BB:  Wow.

 

BE:  It's gone continually, not always with the same angel.

 

BB:  Um,hmmm.

 

BE:  If one angel says, I, because of illness or for one reason or another ...

 

BB:  Sure.

 

BE:  We're not going to do it anymore ...

 

BB:  Right.

 

BE:  It's always happened that another angel has come forward, and we always have to say - we always announce well, we're not - this is the last one, and the next thing we know, it's not the last one.

 

BB:  Um,hmmm.

 

BE:  Uh, we have a Roundarama now in, uh, here in our home town that is in its 27th year, and, uh, we have one in

Cherry Hill College Park, Maryland, at Cherry Hill Park ...

 

BB:  Um,hmmm.

 

BE:  Which is an RV park that is inside the Beltway of Washington, DC.

 

BB:  Oh.

 

BE:  And we do two there a year. We go to York, Pennsylvania, once a year.

 

BB:  Um,hmmm.

 

BE:  Most of them now, we hire someone else to work with us. So that we bring national round dance people ...

 

BB:  Um,hmmm.

 

BE:  Into other areas to work with us. People like Bill and Carol (. .. ), Wayne and Barbara Blackford, Brent and Mickey Moore, uh, (. .. ), Peter and Beryl Barten, um, those of the kind of people, uh, who have come in to work with us at our weekends now.

 

IE:  Childers when they were . . .

 

 

BE:  Bob and Jim Childers came in when they were, were in the activity. Um, now also, we are celebrating this coming year, our 25th year in the state of Indiana for a week-long round dance institute which we put together, as I said, 24 years ago, in order to, uh, stress dance improvement and, uh, to work with teachers and dancers in improving dance techniques.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   Db, the week-long activity and, uh, for the first 20 years, we held it at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. Now we've moved to Purdue University which is an enlarged facility. We have two ballrooms of - each one is well over 7,000 square feet, and, uh, they are side by side so that we can utilize both ballrooms.

 

BB:  Um, hmmm.

 

IE:  At the same time.

 

BE:  At the same time.

 

Bb:  Yeah, right.

 

BE:   Uh, we limit to 90 couples only because we feel that we need to be able to, uh, give as much individual attention as possible ...

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   And we hire, uh, three other staff members. We hire a full-time sound person. Bob and, uh, Joanne ( ... ) from the center part of the country are professional sound people and round dance teachers. So they do our sound for us ...

 

BB: Uh, huh.

 

BE:   And our staff rotates again between people like Bill and Carol ( ... ), Brent and Mickey Moore, Wayne and Barbara Blackford ...

 

BB: Yeah.

 

BE: The ( ... ), the same top-level people ...

 

BB: Hmmm.

 

BE: That we have mentioned before.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   And we usually have, uh, three staff members and a, a teaching staff members and then the full­time sound person.

 

BE:   And we also bring in a young man from Connecticut whose name is Randy Rorabock. Randy's expertise in the round dance world is cueing. Randy cues for almost all of the weekends that we do on the East Coast,

 

BB: OK

 

BE:  And he cues for this week-long thing.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE: It's interesting also that he is a Challenge square dance caller

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: And has clubs in the Connecticut area.

 

BB: I've danced to him several times.

 

BE:   Yes. We're, we're quite proud of Randy, and he does extremely well, and, uh, he's becoming pretty well known nationally for his cueing also. He's also choreographed some really nice routines.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   So this, urn, full week that we do in Indiana is extremely successful, and it's interesting to note that at this point in time, I have 127 couples on the waiting list.

 

BB: Boy.

 

BE: To come to this facility as it limits to 90 couples.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE: Every year. We're starting our 24th year of that.

 

IE:    Uh, and then we have also, 00, teacher seminars or schools, uh, to, urn, teach teachers how to teach, and we've done that for ...

 

BE: For 15 years. Our 16th one is scheduled for this coming June in '97.

 

IE:    It's held in various parts of the country. We started out in the middle, mid west ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    Did one in ( ... ), Wisconsin, did several in ( ... ) Falls, Indiana, which was a state park with a very nice facility, and we've done one in California. Uh, and we've done several here in our local community, uh, that way we can stay at home and, uh ...

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And bring the, the teachers to us ...

 

BB:  Yeah.

 

IE:    Which works out pretty good.

 

BB: Definitely.

 

IE:    And, uh, I guess we have trained well over 200,250 teachers in, uh, like your square dance caller schools.

 

BB:  Right.

 

IE:    The same type of thing.

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE:    And, uh, uh, we're quite proud of that too, and, uh, a lot of them, uh, a lot of these teachers are now, uh, board members for Roundalab, which we are proud of

 

BB:  Sure.

 

IE:    The Executive Secretary ...

 

BB: You bet.

 

IE:    Went to one of our school.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    She's, uh, 00, very proficient as an Executive Secretary, so, 00, the background that, that they've, uh, gotten at our schools, we feel, has helped them to climb the ladder in the round dance picture.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    At least we hope so.

 

BB:  Uh, tell me what other - you probably have a quite list of things that you've choreographed yourself Tell us about some of your - you don't have to give a whole list, but, 00, what are some of the popular . . .

 

BE:   Well, first of all, I am embarrassed to say we had no idea until about 10 years ago, someone was keeping track of how many we have written ...

 

BB: Laughter.

 

BE: And we had already choreographed over the 100 mark.

 

BB:  Uh, huh.

 

BE:   And we didn't even realize that. Urn, some that have been very popular at the easy level, uh, a routine that was

on Velco called Step and Easy is still being used with beginners groups.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: Urn, we also wrote, urn, uh, Hot Java, which is an Al Hert record ...

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:  That, uh, is still being used occassionally.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   Some of those that have - as we moved up the ladder in, uh, level, in phases, which is a Roundalab term that is being used now ...

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   A dance called Memory is extremely popular. It's, uh, from the theme from Cats. Also Sugar Foot Stomp

 

IE:    Which is a Hall of Fame ...

 

BE:   Was a Hall of Fame dance and also a dance that has won the, urn, uh, Roundalab classic list and Hall of Fame from URDC.

 

IE:    EI Cocoa.

 

BE:   And EI Cocoa also. Urn, Sugar Foot Stomp was a Grand record. Urn, let me see, also, urn, this is terrible, I can't even think ...

 

BB: Laughter.

 

BE: Of the titles.

 

BB: Well, you've got ...

 

IE:    Well, we've got one right now that's very, very popular. It's called Boogy Blues, and it's a jive, and it was on the top, it was in the top ten, and it was in the top two or three for a full year.

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE:    And they phase them out after they've been in ...

 

BB: Oh, sure.

 

IE:    The top ten for a year, and, uh, but we see in the, uh, catalogs, or in the magazines, that it's still being taught some places even though it's been phased out ...

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE:    Of the top ten as far as you ( ... ) group is concerned.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    So, uh, Boogy Blues is very, very popular right now.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    ( ... ) And we've done some phase four routines like, uh, Hey, Daddy, and uh, Jumbo Mumbo and stuff like that.

 

BE: And Perhaps.

 

IE:    Perhaps.

 

BE: These are dances that are very popular now.

 

BB: Okay. Is that a phase four?

 

IE:    Yes.

 

BE:  Pahse four.

 

IE:  (…)

 

BB:  Huh.

 

BE:  Phase four.

 

BB:  (…)

 

BE:  It’s a four.   See there.  So,

 

BB: Thank you very much, Betty and Irv. Uh, so, let's continue on with our discussion. Go ahead.

 

BE:   All right. Urn, we were talking about the video tapes of Roundalab, and, urn, I think this is perhaps a good time to mention that, uh, several round dance people across the country are putting video tapes, releasing video tapes, with, with routines or figures on them. Uh, most of those are done, uh, in someone's dance hall or in, in a basement, but that doesn't mean that they're not still quite good. Urn, about, uh, 6, 7 years ago, we decided that it was time for Roundarama to put some favorite dances on video tape because we were concerned with losing some of the good old tapes, good old dances. And, uh, so we called ours, uh, Favorites by Request, Roundarama's Favorites by Request, and we had Brent and Mickey Moore, Wayne and Barbara Blackford, and Irv and myself as, uh, the clinicians on these tapes. Uh, we put - did four tapes, six dances to a tape, and each dance was done twice, once the whole way through without cues, urn, and once through with cues and in both instances, we used two cameras so that one camera would, uh, focus on the entire body so that body sway and upper body action could be shown, and the second camera zoomed in on the feet so that we had as proper foot work.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: As possible was being done on the video tape.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   Urn, it was very difficult to do these, urn, for several reasons. We think that we were perhaps the first, and maybe the only, uh, people who cleared the legal use of the choreography from the choreographers where possible ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   Also the legal use of the music from the owners of the music. And, uh, this is one reason why we have stopped with just, uh, 24 dances because we began to run into problems with the legal use of the music. It became extremely expensive, and, uh, in today's society, you just can't go out and use music and even though it's for educational purposes, uh, it's just not considered proper to use it unless you pay extreme prices for the use of the music.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   So we have 45, excuse me, 24 dances completed on four videos, and, uh, as I said, our goal was to keep some of the old favorites on the, on the tape and available for people in the future rather than the current routines. We have several others that have been taped, hut we have not received permission to use the music from the recording companies, so they're sitting in the sidelines waiting for the day when we can put those out. Um, the other thing that has become very popular in the round dance world in the past 15 or more years is, uh, what we call figure clinics or dance improvement clinics.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   Um, Roundarama has run a figure clinic at least once a year for teachers and/or dancers, urn, we try to keep the number of participants fairly low so that we can do one-on-one as much as possible. Round dancing has become much more involved since we first started in 1959 and '60.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   Um, probably in those days, uh, maybe there were - fewer than 100 figures that were used in all of the dance routines and mostly we did two step and waltz at that time.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: Occassionally there was a polka or a

 

BB:  Right.

 

BE:   Little kind of a soft shoe action but ...

 

BB:  Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   And the sequences were very short and very repetitive so that if we - using those 100 figures in many different ways, the dances were interesting. But as the dance society - the round dance society began to become a little more sophisticated and, uh, the need seemed to be there for a little more intricate figures and foot work, uh, we found it necessary for many of us to go to ballroom instructors to improve our technique and our style and to learn as much as possible about dancing. One of the good things about the, uh, need for many of us to update, uh, our dance technique is that we feel that we have made better dancers out of ourselves and also out of those that we come in contact with. So, therefore, figure clinics are very important. Uh, when Roundalab first did their video tapes, there were over 900 figures

 

BB:  Wow.

 

BE:   That were placed on the video tapes, and that was approximately, uh, 12 years ago, 10 to 12 years ago .

 

BB:  Hmmm.

 

BE: Uh, just this year, Roundalab has added an additional 240 figures ...

 

BB:  Wow.

 

BE: And, uh, these are separate figures. They are not combinations.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   When we find, uh, a combination figure, we, uh, do not plan to put that on the video tape because we feel that's choreography.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   There are many choreographers and many teachers who feel that some of these combinations ought to be put together, but since we can vary the entries and the exists and quite often the positions that we use in our creative choreography ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE: We feel that combinations should not be ...

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: Put on tape.

 

BB: As they are in square dancing comparatively speaking.

 

BE: Combinations are put on in square dancing?

 

BB: Well, I mean, like Acey Deucey for example ...

 

BE: Correct.

 

BB: Is a combination of two other calls that you just as well give ...

 

BE:   Yes.

 

BB: Without calling it Acey Deucey.

 

IE:    Yes.

 

BE: Right. And we don't do that. We keep our calls - our figures separate ...

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   And don't put combinations together. We allow the choreographers then, not allow, but we encourage the choreographers to become as creative as they possibly can.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: By using many combinations of figures.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:  Uh, dancers are very interested now in clinical work. Particularly the dancers that are in the higher phases ...

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE: Uh, they really want to know how to dance as properly as possible.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   And as correctly as possible. Even though many of us, uh, are limited in our skills and in our body movement because of age, 00, we still would like to know how to do it.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Well, proper technique as far as doing some of these figures is very important in being able to accomplish ...

BB: Right.

 

IE:    These figures as well. Regardless of the lack of skills that they have. If we try to go into something without knowledge, it makes it doubly difficult.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    But with the background and knowledge that a lot of us have obtained over the years, we are able now to show the dancer, uh, where this figure comes from, and how it escalates out of simple steps ...

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Like the box and the progressive box, and things like that.

BB: Urn, hmmm. Okay.

 

IE:    And that, in essence, uh, when you learn a new figure, 00, I'd say 90% of the time you're really only learning one new step.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    But you know the prior steps ...

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And what to do in that particular figure.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And, 00, so, uh, learning the technique of how to, 00, perform these things has made it a lot easier for a lot of people who live ( ... ).figure clinics.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   What, 00, what we also feel is happening to the round dance world is that, urn, many teachers are, are not starting with the two step in their classes.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   Because they realize now, after the education that many of us have managed to pass on or that they themselves are getting, and also the educational materials that Roundalab is giving them, that, uh, the two step is very easily taught after the students have had a little more understanding of dance in general.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   So, we really, most of us are starting out now with, uh, fox trot, very basic fox trot, American fox trot and waltz, basic cha-cha and basic rumba and basic swing, which is at the phase three level as far as Roundalab is concerned now.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   And then once they have spent, uh, 10 to 12 weeks learning half a dozen basic figures in each of these rhythms, and it can be done in 12 weeks or less. You can spend one to two sessions more, and they have everything they need to know about a two step.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   So, phase one and two of round dancing is what we, we really feel is almost the most difficult part. If we start them right out with the two step, it becomes very traumatic for a lot of people.

 

BB: I see.

 

BE:   But if you can teach them to do a little waltz and a little fox trot, something they can use on the social ballroom floor, they can use it in line dancing and country dancing, and they can feel very proficient if they go to a high school reunion or a wedding reception. If you can teach them that kind of dancing, then getting them into the round dance picture is much easier. Getting them into the two step of the square dance, square and round dance picture is easier.

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE:    And we do something we call associative teaching, and, 00, what we try to do is associate all the figures as you move up the ladder with what you've learned.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Prior to, 00, learning this next step.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And, uh, we, we feel that we can associate all the rhythms. Uh, we very seldom ever concentrate on one rhythm (. .. ) an entire evening.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Because we want the people to be familiar with music.

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE:    And be able to detect what the music is. So we will give them a fox trot and a waltz and maybe a cha-cha in one evening just doing the basic steps.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And then, uh, a couple of evenings down the line, we might do, uh, uh, a basic, uh, cha-cha, rumba ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    Uh, eliminating the steps. All you do ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    When you do a rumba is ( ... ) some very, very basic jive. And so now they've learned almost five different rhythms in a short period of time, and they start listening to music, and we feel that listening to the music is (. .. ) music is doing is one of the important things about dance. And so we do the associative teaching an awful lot ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    Of the associative teaching.

 

BB: An interesting concept, right.

 

BE:   And actually Roundalab is encouraging associative teaching. That, that phrase has been in the Roundalab educational materials for 10 or more years now, I think. We talk about figure families and associative teaching and learning in relationship to almost all of our educational ...

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   Work now. I remember many, many years ago when Manning Smith would say, we have enough teachers of dances and not enough teachers of dancing. And, uh, we wonder now if this is the concept that perhaps he was thinking of that we really need to stop teaching so many routines but start teaching ...

 

IE:    People how to dance.

 

BE: People how to dance.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:  And that's, uh, that's really very important. Urn, we started taking private ballroom lessons in relationship to our

round dance activity in the, uh, mid '70s, early '70s, I guess.

 

BB: Okay.

 

BE:   Um, prior to that time, the only ballroom instruction we had had was local Fred Astaire and Arthur Murray studio stuff that we had picked locally.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   Then we started to go to an international ballroom instructor in Washington, DC. Um, his name was Al France, and he was, uh, world renowned and had won a lot of awards, etc. But, um, what we began to discover is that the dancers, some of the dancers, had gone out on their own - I'm talking about dancers across the country not just ...

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   In our local area - had gone out on their own and gone to private ballroom instruction to learn more because the little bit that had gotten from their local round dance people, uh, began to interest them in dancing - in the full spectrum of dancing.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   So we discovered that there were some dancers out there who seemed to have more knowledge about dance technique than we did, and we felt we better our act together and become better teachers.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   So we went to the ballroom instructor basically to improve our own technique and to improve our teaching technique so that we would better understand how we could, could teach these figures to the dancers. Urn, I'll be very honest with you - I still have this, uh, it's not a fear but it's a concern. Uh, the top teachers, round dance teachers, in the

United States right now, and by top I'm talking about those who do the largest number of national traveling festivals.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   Uh, they all have had many years of ballroom instruction. We started in the early in the early '70s, and almost all of them that are traveling now started approximately that time or a little bit later.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   They all do it. We all go regularly. We are all constantly trying to update our techniques and our knowledge. My concern is that for the younger teachers that are coming in. We were still in our - I was 29 when we started to teach, and Irv was 31. So we were pretty young. We had children. Fortunately, uh, Irv's mother, uh, lived in - with us for a long time and prior to that time, she was nearby, so we never had to leave our children with a stranger when we went away to do festivals or went to work. Either Grandmother was with them, or we took our children with us.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   In today's society, both mothers and fathers work, and, uh, there isn't time for them to spend time with children, to teach round dancing, to take private lessons on their own ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   It's, it's a different society that we have now. And my concern is that we're going to be hard pressed to find instructors that have studied and have the knowledge that many of our older instructors have because we hit the circuit a little later in our lives. We were able to do it a little later in our lives. We have a lot of nice talent out there. A lot of young teachers that have lots of ability, but I'm finding that the dancers are becoming a little, uh, discriminate, a little more discriminating in who they select to go to festivals to be with.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   They want to make sure that the person who is teaching has as much or more knowledge than they as dancers have.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   And it's going to be really hard, I think, for some of the young people to kind of climb to the top of the ladder if that's their wish.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

BE:   And it is a wish of a lot of them. They wish - they see people like Bill and Carol (. .. ), and the Moores, and the Easterdays, and whoever they want to be like that. They want to do that.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: And it's going to be difficult because of family commitments, job commitments, and, uh, time constraint.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    One of the important things that we found out very early on in our ballroom instruction was that there were more, there was more to dancing than just moving your feet. Uh, our instructor said round dancers were the best foot rhythm people that he had ever seen. He said there's no doubt that you have rhythm, he said, your feet move perfectly to the music. He said, but you dance like sticks. And we didn't use our upper body at all. And I think the upper body, the use of hands for instance, in Latin dancing and things of this nature, have become a very intricate part of round dancing in the phase five and size level, especially.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And, uh, so, uh, it was an entirely new concept.

 

BB: Um, hmmm.

 

IE:    Uh, and I think we learned, learned some things about anatomy, ha, as well as learned some things about dancing when we started taking instructions from, from this national ...

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Ballroom instructor.

 

BB:  Yeah.

 

IE:    And it was quite interesting to, to see how the use of the body made the feet work so much easter.

 

BB: Right.

 

I.E:. And, uh, so we - the more intricate and more advanced figures were really not difficult because we knew more how to perform ...

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Those figures. And it was a very, very interesting concept that we learned there.

 

BB:  Yeah. It's interesting that's one of the questions I had down to ask you about international ballroom. Isn't it true that a lot of what is considered standard basics today in round dancing came from this international ballroom.

 

BE:   Yes.

 

IE:    Oh, yeah. I think, uh, well, the simple box step came from, uh ...

 

BB:  Sure.

 

IE:    Came from the ballroom. You know, uh, it always amazed me, uh, we used to be hired to go in certain places, and they said you cannot use international figures. And I said, you mean I can't use a box? And they'd look at me kind of funny, you know.

 

BB: Yeah, right.

 

IE:    But, uh, I don't think that round dance, round dancing, reinvented the wheel.

 

BB:  Yeah.

 

IE:    Uh, they borrowed from the ballroom people.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    From the very beginning.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    It wasn't a new concept.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    In any way, shape or form. And so it's a matter of everything that we do has actually been filtered down from other - some other form of dancing.

 

BB:  Sure.

 

IE:    It may be folk dancing.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    It may be ballroom dancing.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    It may be international ballroom dancing.

 

BB:  Right.

 

IE:    Uh, we don't have any international ballroom figures any more because we call them round dance figures.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And so we've put that international aside.

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE.:. But they are figures that we have borrowed from, uh, the ballroom picture.

 

BE:   Uh, uh, a little antidote, when the square dance national was in Oklahoma, I think it was in the '80s. I can't remember again. The dates escape me. Urn, lrv was asked by Roundalab to do a tango clinic, which he did. And he started out with fox trot, and, uh, cued them through, walked them through several sequences of figures and put on several pieces of fox trot music, and then he said now I want you to do the same thing. I'm going to give you another piece of music, and I just want you to immediately do the same figures. And I will cue you through these figures. Well, we put on tango music. Immediately you saw the group kind of lower into their legs.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   Took a tango stance, and did the same fox trot figures but to tango music. And they were doing almost entirely Tango Manita.

 

BB: There you go.

 

BE:   So, uh, Manning and Nita Smith still had their booth at the square dance national at the time, and someone went to Manning and said, oh, Irv Easterday just did this clinic and he proceeded to tell them about the clinic. And Manning said to this gentleman, well, I guess it's time now to reveal the secret that the entire routine of Tango Manita came from my ballroom instructor.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   So, you see, it's been around a long time.

 

IE:    Yeah. And it didn't start with the new kids on the block.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Uh, Manning Smith went to ballroom ...

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Instructor to get some ofthe material ...

 

BB: Yeah.

 

IE:    That he used way back then.

 

BE: Way back then.

 

BB:  Well, basically the difference between ballroom and round dancing is that the round dances are cued and ballroom is pretty . . .

 

BE: Yes.

 

BB: Much free style.

 

BE: Actually, yes, it's pre-choreographed ...

 

BB: Yes, right.

 

BE: Pre-choreographed sequence ...

 

BB:  Yeah.

 

BE:   Too, and everyone, of course, is doing the same thing at the same time. And actually, in most ballroom work, it's also pre-choreographed.

 

BB:Urn, hmmm.

 

BE:   The sequences are not so long, but they're pre-choreographed and the, uh, even though it looks beautiful and looks as if the gentleman is leading the lady through all of these figures in ballroom, they have practiced their sequences ...

 

BB: Oh, sure.

 

BE: Together many times.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   So, uh, the only thing that we do that's different is that we often, most often, repeat segments of our dances to particular sections of the music which makes it different from ballroom.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: And, as you said, we do have cueing. And we remember the days when there was no cueing.

 

IE:    Yeah.

 

BB: Hmmm.

 

IE:    Or very little. But East Coast, I think, almost always had cueing. The West Coast and the Mid West, they sort of came along later as far as the cueing is concerned.

 

BB: Hmmm.

 

IE:    I've had a lot of people say to me, well, what is, what is round dancing. And I tell them it's disciplined ballroom.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    And they say, well, what do you mean by that. I said, well, it's disciplined in the fact that we all do the same thing at the same time. Whereas ballroom, the leader, or the man, is doing his own choreography, does it when he wants to.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    But, we are disciplined to do it when the music and choreography tells us to do it.

 

BB:  That's a good description. I, uh, I hasten to add that, uh, I think I had the first round dance class in Connecticut. And, uh, in those days, the dancers were expected to learn the routine and when they were called upon to dance, I would cue it one time through and they would dance the rest of it.

 

IE:    Yeah.

 

BE:   Yeah. And that's how we learned our round dancing also. Curly would cue it through the beginning, and then we did it without cues.

 

BB: That's the way we do with contras today.

 

BE: Urn, hmrnrn.

 

IE:    Is that right.

 

BB: Yes, oh yes.

 

BE: And then they do it without cues the rest of the time in contras.

 

BB: Oh yeah, right.

 

BE: That's nice, that's nice. We feel ...

 

IE:    I think cueing is hear to stay as far as round dancing is concerned.

 

BB: Oh yes, absolutely.

 

IE:    Especially with the more intricate ...

 

BB: Sure.

 

IE:    Rounds that we are doing now.

 

BB: Oh, yes.

 

BE:   Well, I think when we first started, there were not nearly so many new routines written each month or each year as there is now. Uh, I remember when Curly would say, urn, I've just got the latest round, and I'm going to teach it to you. And I would think, oh, how exciting. Here's a brand new dance. Well, then when we began to teach and took round dancer magazine, we realized that there were maybe 20 dances written every month. And why did he fool me and tell me there was only one?

 

BB: Yeah.

 

BE: And, of course, he wasn't fooling me.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: He was just saying, you know, I've got this new one for you.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: And now, of course, there's 50, 60 sometimes a month depending on ...

 

BB: Is that right.

 

BE: Urn, the, in various phases.

 

BB: Yes.

 

BE:  Yes. In various phases. Sometimes there's just too many. They can't get - they can't all get printed in magazines any more.

 

BB: Yeah.

 

BE: There's too many.

 

BB: I'll bet. Round dance magazines still operate though.

 

IE:  Uh, I'm not sure.

 

BE:  We don’t think so.

 

BB:  Oh, I see.

 

IE:  I kind of doubt it.  I think the only thing that’s being published now is, uh, cue sheet magazines.

 

BB:  I see.

 

IE:    Granger out in San Diego.

 

BB: I got you.

 

IE:    Does that.

 

BB:  Okay. Well, we're getting down near the end of this tape again, and I wonder if you would give me a little overview of your impression of the activity as it stands today. Is it healthy? Is it going to remain healthy? Is it going to go up or go down like square dancing has, uh, just off the top of your head now, what's your impression of how you stand today.

 

IE:    I think it basically depends on the area that you live in. I'd say it's pretty healthy in this area, and, uh, I'd say it's pretty healthy at the higher levels right now.

 

BE: You're talking about round dancing.

 

IE:    I'm talking about round dancing, yes. And, uh, but the major problems that I see in the background is that most of our dancers are getting older, and we do not see a lot of young people coming into the picture. We feel quite fortunate we have about five young couples that dance with us in the DC area ...

 

BE: And just joined our group within the last 3 months.

 

IE:    Yeah. That are in their 30s. But that is unusual. Most of the people are in their 60s or older ...

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    That are doing the level of dancing that I'm speaking about, five, six level. Uh, so, uh, what is in front of us, I, we really don't know.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    Uh, we're hoping that maybe there are five, six couples in every area of the United States that are in their 30s that are interested in round dancing ...

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And will get involved. Uh, I think, also, that we've got to get our people from more than just one source. We can't rely only on square dancing.

BB: Right.

 

IE:    One of the reasons for that is, is square dancing is not flourishing right now, and if we depend only on what we get from them, we're not going to get much.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    And so, we've got to tap other sources as far as people are concerned to get involved. Uh, we do a social ballroom class for a college, and we have gotten some people involved in round dancing as a result of taking the social ballroom class with us.

 

BB: Urn, hmmm.

 

IE:    And then we tell them there's another activity, it's called round dancing.

BB: Yeah.

IE:    And try to get them interested in that. Doesn't always work.

BB: Urn, hmmm.

IE:    But at least you get some fresh blood. As a matter of fact, we've put some people in square dancing through that class.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:  Yes. And we've been doing that class for about 25 years. And still continue to do that.

 

BB: Right. Well, that's the way it should be.

 

BE:  I'm perhaps much more optimistic, urn, than Irv is. I just feel that, that, uh, Callerlab is now trying some other approaches to beginners classes, and I really think it is going to work by doing the shortened length of classes, 10 or 12 weeks, or whatever they call their new system. And I really feel that, 00, the round dance picture can, 00, can remain healthy if we basically do the same thing which is one of the things for the last several years in Roundalab we've been encouraging people to do as we talked about before. Social ballroom with them first, and then introduce them into round dancing. I also feel that through country western, we're going to eventually get some people who are looking for a form of dance that is not going to be done in the bars. And, uh, round dancing will be their answer because they're doing, many of them that you see on television now, are doing the very same figures and same routines that we do in the round dance world, but they're doing them in a smoky bar atmosphere.

 

BB:  Right.

 

BE:   And, uh, that's one of the things that many of us like about round dancing is that we are not in that kind of atmosphere.

BB: Right.

 

BE:   Like in the square dance activity. We're out of, out of the bar. And I really feel that, that we will have some of those people. As they get a little older, they will want out of that atmosphere, but they will still want to dance. Again, it's being in the right place at the right time.

 

BB:  Right.

 

IE:    It's coming in the back door kind of thing.

 

BB:  Yeah. Is there any effort to do exhibitions or anything like that? At the bar, at these bars or wherever they.

 

BE: Not for round dancers.

 

BB:  (. .. )

 

BE: Round dance people, to our knowledge, don't do that.

 

BB: Yeah. I'm ...

 

BE: But ...

 

BB: Off the top of my head and say well maybe ...

 

BE: That would be the way to go.

 

BB: Yes. Right.

 

BE:   You know, what, what often happens, of course, is, uh, that the exhibitions are done in places like nursing homes ...

 

BB: Yeah.

 

BE: Or schools.

 

BB:  ( ... )

 

BE:   Or out on the, out on the, in the mall, in the center of the mall because we're going to help open a new store or whatever we're doing.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE: And that's really not the place to get, to get new dancers.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   But I do feel that we do have a chance, and I think it's going to improve. I also feel that one of the things that's helping, that may help, is not wearing the very full petticoats that we've worn for the last 15 years.

 

BB: Right.

 

BE:   Uh, when we first started to round dance, our skirts were longer, my pettipants were longer, and, urn, my petticoat was not nearly so full. And then, over the years, the styles changed. They got shorter, and we all wore hundred-yard petticoats and very short skirts, and, 00, I was a big defender of that kind of clothing. I thought it was wonderful. I always said that I always felt so feminine when I was dressed in that full petticoat. But I realize now that it was a turn-off for an awful lot of people.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    That probably would have come into the activity if they could have dressed more normally and not in so much costume.

 

BB: Right.

 

IE:    I do have an objection, however, to, uh, permitting the dancers to wear

 

End of Tape

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Written By: Bob Brundage
Date Posted: 11/12/2007
Number of Views: 3106

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